tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3873756940955163469.post7429337379804076292..comments2024-03-18T18:05:25.821-07:00Comments on VISIONS OF THE NORTH: Irving's grave found -- by Woodman!Russell Potterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11023313195827310776noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3873756940955163469.post-74650710070405882572010-04-03T11:59:22.409-07:002010-04-03T11:59:22.409-07:00As a newcomer to this blog I hope this is not a st...As a newcomer to this blog I hope this is not a stupid question but having just seen the C4 documentary, where did the Innuit testimony on the lone Innuit enetering a ship and being warned not to go to an encampment on shore originate from.<br /><br />Regards PaulUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17375657011641348805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3873756940955163469.post-14039406925099917822010-03-26T17:41:08.688-07:002010-03-26T17:41:08.688-07:00What a wonderful photograph of the grave! Wow! T...What a wonderful photograph of the grave! Wow! That's so thrilling to see, and I'm so glad it still exists so intact!Gracehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12728490691563640579noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3873756940955163469.post-41788780537172164662010-01-25T15:25:01.754-08:002010-01-25T15:25:01.754-08:00It seems clear that whatever ships were seen by th...It seems clear that whatever ships were seen by the Inuit, it was not near Victory Point. No one [even American/European explorers] would have resisted the temptation of taking as much as possible from the abandoned equipment, and as Russell said, wood was more precious than gold. On the other hand, the natives had probably few occasions to see ships, either abandoned or manned, thus they would very well remember one such encounter. <br />Having discarded all other possibilities of paired sets of sailing vessels, I find it probable that they really saw the ships of Franklin. As for the final position, we have to take into account ice derivation or the possibility that the ships were remanned and piloted. But all this deviates from the main question, namely, whether the grave was Irving’s one or not. I tend to believe it was not. The medal is too weak an evidence, as any other object had already been stolen, and this one was probably found because it escaped to the Inuit’s attention. Three would be the suitable candidates, two of which are known to have reached Victory Point. If we assume the grave was constructed after the (first?) time the ships were deserted, then only two would justify the heavy work on the grave. And if it was some other officer, it would be very helpful to know the identities of those who died before April 25, 1848.Rutgerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01138412167073652189noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3873756940955163469.post-72092910449486791802010-01-22T09:58:15.829-08:002010-01-22T09:58:15.829-08:00I wouldn't disagree that European expectations...I wouldn't disagree that European expectations, culture, mindset, etc. all play a role. But there was no other paired set of sailing vessels in the area of the Netsilingmiut or the Utjulingmiut Inuit during this period, so this part of the testimony seems to have no alternative explanation. Of course, beyond that, there are many areas where expectations and a certain romanticism come in -- Hall's idea that "Aglooka" must have been Crozier (or indeed that everyone the Inuit called "Aglooka" was in fact the same person) is one good example.Russell Potterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11023313195827310776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3873756940955163469.post-67240826511451980162010-01-21T16:31:32.129-08:002010-01-21T16:31:32.129-08:00We will just have to disagree. I am far from convi...We will just have to disagree. I am far from convinced that the Inuit accounts are descriptions of Franklin ships to begin with. That is where the European expectations come in.xibalbahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00224952131898257723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3873756940955163469.post-89783356626836189642010-01-21T07:24:48.604-08:002010-01-21T07:24:48.604-08:00I'm sure Dave Woodman has the GPS coordinates ...I'm sure Dave Woodman has the GPS coordinates for this site, should someone wish to revisit it.<br /><br />As to the bulleted points: these aren't Inuit accounts filtered through European expectations -- it's a series of logical conclusions based both on Inuit accounts and the reports of multiple Franklin search expeditions. Had the Inuit known sooner of the immense cache of goods at Crozier's Landing, they surely would have gone to retrieve it, as surely as any of us would go after heaps of twenty-dollar bills dumped in our back yards. Wood and metal were more precious than gold in the pre-contact and early contact eras. That no Inuit arrived at this location until 1860 or later is very solid evidence that none of them knew about it before then.Russell Potterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11023313195827310776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3873756940955163469.post-41584410311174215592010-01-19T19:25:34.623-08:002010-01-19T19:25:34.623-08:00Very interesting. I do hope the siter is marked in...Very interesting. I do hope the siter is marked in some fashion so it can be preserved. However I must respectfully disagree with:<br /><br />"While I don't necessarily agree with every part of it, there's no arguing with the bulleted points."<br /><br />Well I guess I'm just a bit skeptical of Inuit accounts filtered through European expectations.<br /><br />As for the comments about whether or not starving men would have been able to build this grave? Well having seen Kolyma and Auschwitz I woudn't be quite so cavalier about what starving men could or could not do.xibalbahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00224952131898257723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3873756940955163469.post-38626812298782717932010-01-19T13:25:17.732-08:002010-01-19T13:25:17.732-08:00A superbly interesting series of posts Russell. Th...A superbly interesting series of posts Russell. There's no portrait of Lieutenant Irving but I found one of his brother Lewis:<br />http://camelonparishchurch.org.uk/infopoint/history/47-history-irving<br />From reading the memoir it seems that the person Irving addresses as his 'sister Katie' is actually his sister-in-law, Lewis' wife.<br />CheersPeter Carneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11460641723782699540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3873756940955163469.post-16894594220921405872010-01-09T09:28:57.378-08:002010-01-09T09:28:57.378-08:00Again, many thanks for sharing this.
Two observat...Again, many thanks for sharing this.<br /><br />Two observations about Supunger's vault. 1) There is no mentioned of a casket of any kind. 2) The pole described is large enough that it does not sound like something that would have been salvaged from a lifeboat, though its cross section (4X4) is similar to some parts of McClintock's sledge. <br /><br />The pole and vault would have taken time and care to make and do not seem like the product of a retreating party.<br /><br />It sounds like Cyriax has answered my question about "Crozier's Landing" vs Victory Point.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05564076916142050022noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3873756940955163469.post-78652908366997409372010-01-07T12:57:10.162-08:002010-01-07T12:57:10.162-08:00Thanks all, for the kind words. I do someday mean...Thanks all, for the kind words. I do someday mean to finish one of my longer-term projects, which is an edited volume of all the men's letter's sent back from Greenland, along with a selection of those undelivered letters sent by their friends and families to them.<br /><br />I would be surprised if the Gores and Irvings did not have some communication -- I'll look into it!Russell Potterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11023313195827310776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3873756940955163469.post-36890028549499093862010-01-07T11:04:15.216-08:002010-01-07T11:04:15.216-08:00Russell,
Thanks for the link to the book of John ...Russell,<br /><br />Thanks for the link to the book of John Irving's letters. I had to pay the British Library to photocopy them!<br /><br />Irving wrote well, as did so many of the officers who sailed with Franklin.<br /><br />Here's a little puzzle for your readers. Did Irving have any contact during his years in Australia with John Gore, father of Graham Gore, or indeed with Graham Gore while he was 'down under'?<br /><br />I believe the Gores and the Irvings farmed only about 100 miles away.<br /><br />Thanks for all your great posts.<br /><br />WilliamWilliam Battersbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00452863778733148002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3873756940955163469.post-57038719059839394902010-01-07T10:34:09.437-08:002010-01-07T10:34:09.437-08:00Russell, thank you for all you do regarding this f...Russell, thank you for all you do regarding this fascinating yet tragic expedition and the mystery surrounding it. I really enjoyed reading Irving's letters to his sister and friend. It brought tears to my eyes; they just don't write letters like that anymore.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02042695725302012311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3873756940955163469.post-54830851029046979912010-01-07T00:21:02.403-08:002010-01-07T00:21:02.403-08:00Russell, you posts this year have been outstanding...Russell, you posts this year have been outstanding! A lot to digest but well worth it.IanMchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07656167156349417326noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3873756940955163469.post-23440326450369072232010-01-06T07:14:25.059-08:002010-01-06T07:14:25.059-08:00Just a p.s. to this posting -- I have found that t...Just a p.s. to this posting -- I have found that the NMM has photos and information on a number of relics brought back from Irving's grave -- most significantly, quite a few fragments of the blue officer's coat or jacket -- which you can see <a href="http://www.nmm.ac.uk/collections/explore/object.cfm?ID=AAA2238" rel="nofollow">here</a>, along with images of the sailcloth the body was wrapped in, and even the sledge-harness, which you can see is marked "T11" not "TII." The general index can be had <a href="http://www.nmm.ac.uk/collections/explore/index.cfm/category/franklinrelics" rel="nofollow">here</a>, and if you search for Schwatka you can bring up the rest of the items ...Russell Potterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11023313195827310776noreply@blogger.com